connection between 2.13 and 2.14

[sepiastars]

I have a little problem with something I noticed connecting the two episodes.

In "Houses of the Holy," Sam is pretty adamant that he has to stop the guy outside of the market because the spirit expressly told him exactly what he was going to do.  He uses the fact that he knows the guy is going to rape someone to justify to Dean that he had to go after him.

Then in "Born Under a Bad Sign," Sam himself is he one who very nearly rapes someone, and worse, a friend.  And yet at the end of the episode, Sam, who is the king of angst and guilt, seems to have no idea what happened, or at least not at all be concerned.

Do you think he didn't remember?  Don't you think he would be more upset?

Comments

[reichell.livejournal.com]

He was possessed.

[dieseled.livejournal.com]

He actually wasn't going to rape her. He was just being rough with her and tied her up as bait. If he was going to rape her he would of had plenty of time to do it before Dean got there, plus there was no one to stop him except Jo but he had her pinned so she couldn't run.
Chances are he didn't remember (although he remembered the demon making him kill the hunter, or most of it). It's probably most likely that Jo didn't say anything either since there was kind of nothing to tell.

[inoue130.livejournal.com]

Possessed by the demon formerly known as Meg.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_ilacemychucks/]

I don't get why people keep saying he nearly raped Jo.. I didn't see it as a rape scene at all. Later Sam said he almost "carved up Jo" .. so I think demon!meg would have hurt Jo, but not raped her. That might have been a little too kinky, even for Meg. ;] Also, Sam was being possessed by demon!meg, that wasn't Sam doing anything.. it was Meg. Sam also said to Dean in the car, that he was only "awake for some of it." So I doubt he remembered all that happened .. I'm sure we'll be seeing more angst later.

[potthead.livejournal.com]

I don't get why people call him rapist!Sam. Manhandling and raping. Two totally different things. I never even saw it as him wanting to rape Jo. Maybe Sam has, liek, teeny, tiny, eeeency weency piece of unrequited love for Jo (omfg EW), which is where the whole "BOY. You sure are carryin' the torch for him" comment came from, but after he knocks out Jo, him nuzzling her, I thought, was just him being all monstrous and smelling her fearrrr. Or something. Something monstrous. Monstrous and demonic. :O!!!

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

He was totally smelling the blood pulsing through her jugular. I didn't see any rape overtones in the scene any more than sex and violence can instinctively mix. Meg was all about doing some violence, there.

[girk.livejournal.com]

Well, I think the scene was intended to be an "omg, is he about to rape her?!" moment for the fans, so in that sense, it was. But I think we all knew he wasn't actually going to rape her.

I mean, SPN has a mostly female fanbase so I think they'd be a bit hesitant to actually take it there, but I could be wrong.

[luthienofold.livejournal.com]

He doesn't remember hurting Dean. I don't see why he would remember the severity of the way he treated Jo. He's going to remember, though, and it's going to kill him on the inside. I hope, anyway. Your thoughts are valid and if the writers don't recognize that, they're very dense.

I think some people (myself included) are reading the exchange between Sam and Jo as a potential rape scene because of all the ways in which Sam acts upon Jo. Jo was violated. Dictionary.com defines rape as: an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation.

Coming into the bar, his comments are immediately sexually charged and highly confrontational. The way he suggests that he could be something more, the way he grabs her wrist ... cut to the bar-stuff (pinned between he and that wood, as she is) and then the way that she is tied. The knife play is just about as phallic as you can get on network television.

So yes, it was violation. Dean comes in just in time.

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

I would agree that Meg certainly wanted her to feel raped, but in terms of actually going to sexually violate her, I don't think that was ever a goal. Then again, Meg was headed towards raping Sam in "Shadows." Maybe it's part of her MO.

[luthienofold.livejournal.com]

Right ... that's why I called it potential rape. We can all agree that Meg's demon (a child of the YED) is insanely fucked up.

It was definitely violation and I felt the same kind of cringey fear for Sam as I did for Jo.

[girk.livejournal.com]

I think in that scene Jo was thinking she was about to be raped because of the way he was acting.

[sepiastars.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for defending my thoughts. I was kind of thinking, 'Man, I don't know what I was seeing there, but apparently no one else was seeing it.'

I mean, after we know that it's Meg, we know that he probably wasn't going to rape her, but as you were watching the scene for the first time, what were you thinking? Whether he was actually going to rape her or not, he wanted Jo to think he was, which is - exactly as you said - a violation. Half the violation of being raped.

I know he was possessed. But it didn't matter who was controlling his body; and let's not forget that Meg is not necessarily a girl. Demons don't really have gender. If demon!Sam had raped Jo, it would have been to torture her, not to get off.

Sam is the king of angst over things he can't control. If he remembers what happened (and let's recall that he does remember some things), he would be tearing himself up over it.

[luthienofold.livejournal.com]

Well spoken. :)

[sepiastars.livejournal.com]

Thank you ^.^

[fiesty-red.livejournal.com]

Considering this is Sam we are talking about, of course he's upset about it, but he had no control over what had happened while he was possessed. And I never got the impression that he was going to rape Jo.

[dementedjen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think everyone jumped to the rape thing because we're all pervs and love it.

[demonessjo.livejournal.com]

haha! That's terrible! But kind of true...

I think people did assume the worst during that scene, but we were also led to think the worst.

[jellicle.livejournal.com]

In Houses the Holy, the priest who thought he was an angel didn't expressly told Sam what the guy was going to do, just that he was going to do something bad and he had to be stopped.

[girk.livejournal.com]

As everyone already said, he was possessed and probably didn't remember it. Though when the demon was exorcised from Meg originally, she remembered things, so maybe it was just a momentary shock type of thing and this week's episode will explore Sam's newfound angst?

I don't know.

But I do think it was supposed to be a rape scene. Obviously they're not going to show someone being raped on Supernatural, especially not by Sam, but that scene was intended to make the viewers think it was a possibility.

I mean, first it was a girl all alone with a guy creepily hitting on her. Guy starts getting rough when she rejects him. Guy pins her to the counter and starts petting her hair. Honestly, I don't really know how anyone could read it otherwise... or maybe I'm just paranoid, haha.

[demonessjo.livejournal.com]

Well, I agree with you. I think it was implied with evil!Sam telling Jo he could be "a friend" to her and touching her with what could be taken as an intimate gesture (touching her hand). We were definitely led to believe that evil!Sam was going to hurt her. It was Meg, and we know that the Meg demon uses sex as a weapon, as a form of intimidation. She was planning on using Jo as bait the whole time to test Dean, so the demon probably just figured it didn't have time to do anything really serious. And it thought to say those things to scare Jo until Dean got there.

Ah well, rape or not, we haven't seen Sam around Jo yet after this. We saw him in the momentary relief of "Hey! Look! I'm not possessed anymore! yay!" I bet things are going to be just a little bit awwwwwwwkward if he ever sees Jo again...

[riddled.livejournal.com]

I'm particularly interested in seeing how Jo will react to Sam. Even knowing that he was possessed probably won't help in feeling any less bitter or scared or jittery around him.

[demonessjo.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Especially since we know, from what Bobby said, that the other hunters aren't going to care if he was possessed or not, they just want to find someone to lynch. It makes me wonder if Jo will turn against them after this. Though that could just be my wishful thinking (I keep wanting her to go "bad" because I think it'd make her interesting...)

[aliskye.livejournal.com]

I think there is a parallel between Possessed!Sam's assault of Jo and Demon!Meg's assault/violation of Sam (taking over his body, forcing him to witness the horrible acts she did while in possession of him) which has to be as much of an assault as what happened to Jo.)

[sepiastars.livejournal.com]

I think that's very insightful.

[lostinpsychosis.livejournal.com]

Like Meg said before she died in Devil's Trap (I do believe that was the epi)she was only awake some of the time although she was possessed a year. Maybe it was the same with Sammy.

[o-nevermind.livejournal.com]

yea, didn't he say he was "awake for some of it" at the end?

[lostinpsychosis.livejournal.com]

I think so